Welcome to the transcript for Season 2, Episode 2 of The Community Effect podcast
Voiceover narrator: In every corner of America, there are stories of resilience, innovation, and the unwavering spirit of community. Join us as we showcase the strategies and solutions that are shaping a brighter tomorrow. This is the Community Effect brought to you by NeighborWorks America.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): Welcome back to the Community Effect.
I'm Marietta Rodriguez, your host and president and CEO of NeighborWorks America. Today we're excited to dive into a timely conversation about manufactured housing as a solution to the attainable housing crisis. Joining us are two leaders at the forefront of this innovative movement. Sarah Kackar, director of Rural Initiatives at NeighborWorks America, and Ramsey Cohen who supports housing solutions for nonprofits nationwide at Clayton.
Together, they'll share how their partnership is transforming housing access through peer learning experiences, like an inclusive zoning course designed to expand affordable housing opportunities, especially in rural areas. But before we dive into the conversation, Sarah, I'd love for you to share some background on NeighborWorks America's work in rural communities.
Could you give us a snapshot of how NeighborWorks supports rural communities and what your role is as our director in rural initiatives?
Sarah Kackar (Director, Rural Initiatives): Sure. Thank you, Marietta. As many of our listeners already probably know, NeighborWorks has been really active in providing capacity-building support for rural America over several decades, and the national level rural work that I direct involves many different parts of assistance, whether it's through capacity-building cohorts or connecting collaborations of organizations or, or whether it's really working with our external partners in order to increase funding and development for the rural organizations. The real key for this initiative is to assist and support our organizations flexibly.
It can take the shape of toolkits to support our organizations working with local partners, or it could be convening organizations around a specific pressing issue or going out to secure additional financial resources that support our larger programming.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): I really appreciate that, and there's so much land in the United States that is rural -- I grew up in a rural state of New Mexico.
The majority of that state is rural land. So I, I really appreciate the perspective you both bring to this conversation. I'm curious, and I'll start with you Ramsey, and I'll ask Sarah also to chime in on this question. What drew you to this work, particularly manufactured housing?
Ramsey Cohen (National Sales at Clayton): The first thing that drew me to it was a job, right? I started working for Clayton when I was just 20 years old. But what's kept me in it is the easy path that I have to connect the work that I do to positive impacts on families across the entire country.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): When you can see those tangible results, it can be very powerful and really motivating. So I really appreciate that.
What about you, Sarah? What brought you to this work?
Sarah Kackar (Director, Rural Initiatives): Well, like you, Marietta, I am a child of rural community as well. I grew up in the grass seed capital of the world in rural Oregon and I really came to housing as part of my education and experience in land and community development and planning.
So I've worked with rural and urban communities across all the sectors and as part of my work in housing, both urban and rural sectors, manufactured housing fits so perfectly. You know, I think that manufactured housing really provides a range of safe and efficient housing today that meets that goal of serving all demographics and income levels better than many other types of housing out there.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): I want to ask Ramsey a question before we get too far into this conversation. We often hear or read a lot of different terminology. I want you to help define it all for us and set the stage a little bit. We hear offsite or factory-built homes, modular homes, manufactured homes. Recently I've started to hear more cross-mod homes.
Can you help us understand what these different terms mean and reference and how they might be utilized in different areas?
Ramsey Cohen (National Sales at Clayton): Yeah, absolutely. That's a great question. You know, I mentioned earlier about, you know what drew me to this and I talked about the feeling about the work that I get to do. Part of the really exciting thing is that we are still innovating, right?
There is a ton happening with our organization. Whether it's building homes to meet zero energy ready standards or the cross-mod homes that you mentioned. So to understand all those different categories, I'm going to start from the past and work my way to the present and the future.
What you had in the past was mobile homes. Technically speaking, a mobile home is a home that was built before 1976; 1976 is a key inflection point for our industry and an important one to understand because that is when we received the HUD code, that's when the federal government stepped in and gave us a national building code, and Hud oversees and regulates our entire industry.
And so each home was inspected by HUD inspectors in the facility. We have to follow a build to that code. That code is critical because it gave us the framework that allows us to move at the scale and speed that we do. Having a standardized building code is critical to us being able to achieve the kind of results that we can in a production environment.
So Mobile Home is anything pre-1976. Manufactured home is what people more associate with our industry. Anything built after 1976 is a manufactured home, so that's a home that's built to meet that HUD code standard, really high standards in terms of energy efficiency, build quality materials. What we've seen is that a lot of people also use the word as you did, modular, and a modular home is distinctly different from a manufactured home in a really key, specific and legal way.
Modular home is a home that is not built to that federal HUD code. It is still built in the facility, but it is built to meet the state and local codes for wherever that home will be placed.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): I think that's a really important distinction. Both manufactured and modular homes are built in a facility versus being built on site where they will be permanently placed.
Am I right there?
Ramsey Cohen (National Sales at Clayton): Yes, that's correct. So a manufactured home and a modular home are both built in a facility. The only distinction between the two is the building codes that are used to build that home.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): What about cross mod?
Ramsey Cohen (National Sales at Clayton): Yeah, so cross mods are homes that are still built to that HUD code, but are indistinguishable from a site built home.
Another way to think about it: 70% of the home is built in the facility, 30% of the home is built on site because we have to build that foundation on site. We then bring the home, set it on the foundation. We then site build a porch and a garage, and cross mod is a home that appraises against site-built homes.
It finances just like site-built homes. Our industry worked with the Fannie and Freddie to develop loan programs for these home types that enable them to have conventional financing with as little as 3% down.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): That's really helpful. Thank you for walking us through that. I feel like more people are turning to manufactured homes as an attainable housing solution.
From your perspective, what do you think is, has sparked this growing interest?
Ramsey Cohen (National Sales at Clayton): Yeah, I think, you know, gosh, need has really sparked that interest, right? We have such an incredible housing supply gap, I think felt most acutely on the affordable end of things, but we have just more broadly a general lack of housing to meet the demand and needs of our country.
And so that sparked a lot of people to think outside the box, but then also our ability to innovate in ways that traditional home builders just simply can't, helps also drive interest. I mentioned earlier that our manufactured homes are built to meet the Department of Energy's Zero Energy Ready Home Standard.
And the reason we're so proud of that innovation is that it reduces a homeowner's utility cost by about 50% compared to a similarly sized home. So the fact that we're able to build and develop new, innovative products and housing solutions that are going to help people, not just be able to afford a home, but also be able to more easily afford to stay in that home is something that I think is driving a lot of interest.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): I mean, 50% reduction in energy costs, that's significant. That's a huge selling factor. Sarah, from a community planning perspective, why is manufactured housing a key option, particularly for rural communities?
Sarah Kackar (Director, Rural Initiatives): Ramsey did a really great job explaining just the efficiency in its construction as well as the end product is a key selling point. But why I think it's a really great option from a community standpoint is that from the curb, we so often talk about curb appeal, it blends in seamlessly to neighborhoods, whether it's an urban, suburban, or rural community, these cross mods, you cannot tell the difference. It also provides speed and lower cost in a Clayton plant that produces cross mods.
They're producing a cross-mod home from nothing to complete home in five days. Five days. I mean, that's really quick, and then they can get it out and ship it quite quickly. Now, on the community side. Are there definitely considerations there on their side? Is the site set up for water? Does the site have all the codes?
Is it really infrastructure ready to accept that home? Right? That is where rural areas can really shine in many ways from its infrastructure readiness as well as its code readiness. And then talk about the zoning codes. You know, traditionally in the rural areas, their zoning codes, their comprehensive plans have really been more tolerant and inclusive of manufactured housing than in urban, suburban areas.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): I know that there is a very innovative and impactful partnership that has emerged between NeighborWorks and Clayton, and I want to talk a little bit more about that partnership. Ramsey, I'll start with you. How do you think this partnership addresses barriers to making modern manufactured housing more attainable?
Ramsey Cohen (National Sales at Clayton): Today's modern manufactured home is inherently attainable, so it's really critical that we make people aware of that. We make community leaders and housing organizations and those who are focused on trying to close that supply gap, especially in the affordable, attainable space. Aware of ways that we could help.
Partnership has really helped that in a number of different ways. I mean, one of the things that stands out to me is the, the peer learning site visits that we've had. I've taken lots and lots of people on tours of our facilities a hundred percent of the time they come away wildly impressed and thinking just how high quality and amazing these homes are.
So seeing it happen in front of you is really, really big. But then also we let them see finished homes and walk through a visit, a cross-mod home, and it helps people really understand those key product. Differences that housing types and how they can fit in and serve. Because the reality is our, we're able to help solve housing challenges in a myriad of different price flows.
So it's a matter of what's your local challenge? We have a solution that will work for that. It's a matter of making people aware of that. And so this partnership has really, really helped create that critical awareness that our industry and Clayton is here to help solve those problems.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): I think you're absolutely right.
Once someone sees something, this is a, a visual, tangible alternative I think can be very powerful. Sarah, I know we've talked a little bit on the fringes regarding zoning, and I know you all have worked on some zoning ordinances, often referred to as inclusionary zoning. Tell us a little bit more about that zoning work.
Sarah Kackar (Director, Rural Initiatives): Sure. So a zoning code really directs where and how much our built environment is placed in communities. So our homes are called residential uses next to commercial uses or maybe business or downtown. So how these uses relate to each other in space and place is what really drive a lot of how our community functions.
Our network organizations today are really finding themselves on the front lines of developing their housing within these codes. So many of the network organizations are facing codes which do not currently allow manufactured housing as a permissible use in a residential area. So as Ramsey said, you know, 1976 is a real seminal year for manufactured housing and many codes in areas that haven't had to update or rewrite could easily be pre 1976.
Zoning codes and comprehensive plans have historically placed manufactured housing and what used to be just referred to as manufactured home parks on the outskirts of communities. Rather than thinking about the types of housing in our communities and into integrating new manufactured housing within one residential zone or residential area,
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): Sounds like there's an opportunity to do some education and awareness building.
Sarah Kackar (Director, Rural Initiatives): Absolutely. And our groups have been doing a great job of that, and, and that's something that we definitely have been helping them with.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): Before we move into talking about the partnership we have, Ramsey, I just want to ask you one last question. What's the one thing that you hope that people understand about manufactured housing?
Ramsey Cohen (National Sales at Clayton): The biggest thing I'd hope people understand is the quality that goes into every home. You know, I've been out and talked to people and they ask questions like, well, what are these homes built with? What are homes built like? The same materials you would use in site construction. It's the exact same process.
With that, I would hope they'd also understand the benefits of that HUD code and how it enables us to achieve those attainable price points and how valuable that is. And so I know that's a couple of things, but I'd hope people ultimately just understand today's modern manufactured homes are homes.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): Let's talk specifically about the collaboration between NeighborWorks America and Clayton. I'll start with Sarah and then we'll ask Ramsey to talk about this. What inspired NeighborWorks and Clayton to come together?
Sarah Kackar (Director, Rural Initiatives): Sure. I think what really inspired us, as we started just getting to know each other a little bit, was the shared alignment in our mission.
Both NeighborWorks and Clayton are really committed to providing homes for everyone. NeighborWorks really provides a learning lab of sorts. You know, we have a group of very adept and strong organizations across the country. As many know, the network's super diverse. You know, getting to Ramsey's point about the peer site visits where we're bringing organizations in.
Yeah. I mean, Clayton's meeting people from every different possible type, size, demographic, and situation of our network organizations and able to see that they can consider it and what the possibilities are.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): Ramsey, I'll ask you the same question.
Ramsey Cohen (National Sales at Clayton): Yeah, I would echo so much what Sarah just said. I mean, first and foremost, there's such great alignment.
We're both focused on increasing supply of attainable home ownership and strengthening and building resilient communities. You know, NeighborWorks, Sarah, it's able to offer just incredible support and expertise throughout community development support services. But then we're able to come in and offer scalable, cost-effective housing solutions, right?
We're well positioned to be able to learn from one another while also being able to help one another, you know, optimize our efforts to serve and support underserved communities and close that attainable housing supply gap.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): Sarah, can you briefly describe the elements of the partnership be with Clayton?
Sarah Kackar (Director, Rural Initiatives): A really good, tangible example is over two different years we had a group of organizations who Clayton supported with stipends to basically have the headspace and the time and staff space to say: we really need to dig into this. And one community decide to use their stipend and go visit every manufactured and modular housing plant of every brand and every type in their state.
And they visited, I think, 10 or 15 places. They really came out of it saying, you know what, if we're going to do this, here's the maker and here's the developer who we think is best for us. And another community used their stipend to really engage in very deep community building engagement work with real rural towns in their service and really start to get at that perception and education piece.
So that's just two examples of how these learning cohorts are one piece that Clayton supported.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): Let's talk a little bit about some learnings or some nuggets from the partnership that were unexpected that really turned out to be transformative.
Ramsey Cohen (National Sales at Clayton): I think one of the things that has really helped me is connecting with, you know, local leaders through the site visits and just the realization of how much we're all trying to work to achieve the same thing.
Sometimes the communities that an organization is trying to serve, they don't need the highest end home that we have that's not going to fit for the kind of consumers that they are trying to empower with new pathways to home ownership. And so that realization that we have more in our tool belt to be able to use for, you know, problem solving was, was really, really big.
Sarah Kackar (Director, Rural Initiatives): Yeah. I think I have two nuggets. One is follows on Ramsey's point. I think on our first pure site visit and we were walking through different homes -- part of the site visit is we walk through different homes at different price points. So the cross mod is the highest price point at the end, but we walk through model homes starting at the very lowest price point and keep stepping our way through different homes.
And so everyone can go, oh, okay. This is what it looks like. This is how it feels. This is the difference. It was a nugget of learning for our own network that really stood out as we walked in a home that was at the lowest price point. And someone said, no, this aesthetic, I could never sell this for the group that we are really trying to place homes for in our community.
Someone walked literally right behind her and this gentleman said, oh my gosh. This would be absolutely perfect. This is the price point we need. We don't need a Pinterest board of what the most beautiful thing is in a home, but we do need respectable, safe housing. So that's one nugget. The other nugget that really sticks in my head still, and I think it was also from the first pure site visit we did, was an urban organization who after we have a site visit, we walked through homes.
One day we go through a plant. The other day we really all come together. And this urban organization stood up and said, we just placed factory built housing in our community. If we can say anything to all of our network peers here is that even if you do the proforma and it pencils out the same, the factor of time is absolutely critical. And in our jurisdiction, we didn't have to wait six months for a water hookup, so we were infrastructure ready. And so we got these in the ground in, I think it was 10 weeks, eight to 10 weeks versus six to nine months. And so do not stop when you are at the proforma and it looks the same to you.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): I think that's a real power of the network and the peer convening. Someone's probably gone before you and done it and can share their experience. You've talked about the different elements of this partnership. It sounds like the partnership was able to create a specialized course on inclusionary zoning, and that course is available through the Networks Training Institute.
I know people have raved about this course, so tell us why it was such a game changer.
Sarah Kackar (Director, Rural Initiatives): Let me first define inclusive zoning for you. You know, a technical term for inclusive zoning refers to a requirement for a market rate developer to include some units in their development that qualifies affordable, so they're able to house those at certain lower income thresholds.
Inclusionary zoning though, as a term, has really grown to include the general premise that a zoning code can't restrict or prevent. Housing types that house lower income citizens. So multifamily housing might be a good example and manufactured housing. In our discussions around manufactured housing and inclusionary zoning, we're really working to educate leaders and planners on today's manufactured housing and ultimately update those outdated zoning codes that I mentioned earlier that prohibit manufactured housing.
Now this can be done at a local level, at a zoning code, or it can be done at the state level. So a very good recent example would be Maryland, who at the state level has prohibited any discrimination against manufactured housing in any housing.
In terms of our course, we and Clayton really wanted to develop a course that not only laid out the basics of how land development works, how those regulations work at the local level, but also include manufactured housing and how can that fit within a well-rounded zoning code. You're right Marietta, it has been offered at one NTI or NeighborWorks Training Institute per year in person.
It tends to be offered in our August ones. We're looking forward to hopefully, once again, bringing it back for 2025. It's always full and really well received.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): That's great. That's great. As we start to wrap up, let's take a look down the road into our future. Ramsey. What excites you about the future?
What. Innovations, do you think we'll see coming up?
Ramsey Cohen (National Sales at Clayton): The one thing I'm most excited about is tough, right? Because I think in the next five, 10 years you're going to see such an incredible amount of innovation. Things like cross mod or building homes to that high standard of zero energy ready.
I think the next things we're going to see is an evolution within the zoning space of allowing us to come in and be a part of the solution. I think the fact that we've got these kind of opportunities in front of us is huge. One specific one that I know will have a incredible impact on communities urban and rural across the entire country would be the adoption of a single section cross mod.
So we're urging FHFA, Fannie May, Freddie Mac to be able to add a single section or a smaller footprint, cross mod home to their financing programs. Because we know that'll help us drive the cost of those homes down even further. That's going to be, you know, a home that still has that 30 year conventional financing as little as 3% down, all the energy efficiencies of our homes.
But it's going to be at a much, much more attainable price point, and it's going to be an option that would perfect for new developments that do not require large footprint homes, as well as fer infill opportunities.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): Excellent. I'll ask Sarah the same question. What's coming down the pike in the next five, 10 years?
Sarah Kackar (Director, Rural Initiatives): Well, I think the fact that we have people not only who are young adults now and that Gen Z, but people who are aging into retirement. So the oldest Gen Xers are now approaching retirement who do not have to stay in the same size and same type of home for their whole life. So whether it's starting out or downsizing that's where manufactured housing, I think, really has an edge over site-built housing. I just think that choice, the independent choice and size and, and price point is going to become. Most critical here in the next five to 10 years for our changing demographics of our country.
Marietta Rodriguez (NeighborWorks President & CEO): Sarah and Ramsey, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your insights on how manufactured housing is addressing the attainable housing crisis.
The NeighborWorks Clayton Partnership is a powerful example of what a private public sector collaboration can achieve together. Manufactured housing is clearly on the forefront and has potential. It's inspiring to see it applied with a focus on accessibility, quality, sustainability, and innovation. To our listeners, thank you for turning into the community effect.
Remember to check the show notes to learn more about NeighborWorks American Clayton, and their work on attainable housing. Join us next time as we continue to uncover the stories, strategies, and collaborations shaping the communities that we call home. Until then, keep believing in the power of place and the people who make it possible.
This is the community effect.
